This is a short response to Ricardo Escobar a Postmill Covenantalist who suggests that in Ezekiel chapter 40; Ezekiel the Prophet of God saw in a vision the Church as the New Jerusalem due to the fact that the Church is built on the foundation of the 12 apostles. I respond to Ricardo with the help of ChatGPT with a series of questions and I agree totally with it's interpretation and conclusion. I'm simply allowing ChatGPT correct Ricardo's persistent misinterpretation and understanding as a rebuke to his faulty teaching regarding this subject; with love and respect of course.
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(1) Is the "new" Jerusalem spoken of in Ezekiel?
The "New Jerusalem" specifically mentioned in the Bible is primarily found in the Book of Revelation, particularly in Revelation 21-22, where it describes a vision of a heavenly city descending from God, symbolizing the ultimate fulfillment of God's promise of restoration and renewal.
However, the Book of Ezekiel also contains a vision of a future, restored Jerusalem. In Ezekiel 40-48, the prophet describes a new temple, the division of the land among the tribes of Israel, and a restored city. While this vision is more focused on the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel rather than the "New Jerusalem" of Revelation, it does share themes of renewal, restoration, and the presence of God dwelling with His people.
In summary, while Ezekiel does not specifically refer to the "New Jerusalem" as it is depicted in Revelation, his vision of a restored Jerusalem shares some thematic similarities.
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(2) Does Ezekiel chapter 48 reference the Church at any point?
Ezekiel 48 primarily focuses on the division of the land among the tribes of Israel and the layout of the city, including the temple and the surrounding areas. The chapter is a detailed description of the inheritance of the twelve tribes of Israel in the future restored land. It also outlines the dimensions and gates of the city, which are named after the twelve tribes of Israel.
The chapter does not explicitly reference the Church. Ezekiel's vision is focused on Israel and its future restoration, which is consistent with the overall theme of the book of Ezekiel. The Church, as it is understood in the New Testament, is not directly addressed in Ezekiel 48.
However, some Christian theologians interpret passages in Ezekiel, including chapter 48, in a typological or allegorical sense, seeing the restoration of Israel as a foreshadowing of the Church. But this is an interpretative approach rather than a direct reference within the text itself.
In summary, Ezekiel 48 does not explicitly reference the Church; it primarily concerns the future restoration of Israel. Interpretations that connect it to the Church are more theological or allegorical rather than based on a straightforward reading of the text.
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(3) Isn't the "bride" referenced in Revelation 21:9 a literally city with walls and how can this literal city represent as the Church?
In Revelation 21:9, the "bride" is indeed described in a way that portrays both a person and a city. The verse says:
*“One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.’”* (NIV)
In the following verses, particularly in Revelation 21:10-27, the angel shows John a vision of the New Jerusalem, a city with walls, gates, and foundations. This city is described in great detail, with its measurements, materials, and glory, emphasizing its divine perfection and the presence of God.
The description of the "bride" as a city is symbolic. In biblical symbolism, cities often represent groups of people or communities rather than just physical structures. The New Jerusalem symbolizes the collective people of God, the Church, who are redeemed and made pure by Christ. The imagery of a bride is used throughout Scripture to describe the relationship between Christ and His people, emphasizing love, commitment, and union.
Here’s how this symbolic city can represent the Church:
1. **Symbol of Purity and Holiness**: Just as a bride is traditionally adorned and prepared for her husband, the Church is being made pure and holy through Christ. The New Jerusalem is described as coming down from heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:2). This emphasizes the Church’s sanctification.
2. **Community of Believers**: The city represents the community of all believers, the Church, which is united with Christ. The walls, gates, and foundations symbolize the security, access, and foundation of the Church in Christ.
3. **Dwelling Place of God**: The New Jerusalem is where God dwells with His people. Similarly, the Church is described as the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, where God is present among His people.
4. **Eternal Union**: The marriage imagery signifies the eternal union between Christ and His Church. The city being the "wife of the Lamb" emphasizes this everlasting relationship.
Thus, while the New Jerusalem is described as a literal city with walls and other features, it is also a profound metaphor for the Church—the people of God—depicting their beauty, unity, and eternal relationship with Christ.
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(4) Doesn't the scriptures portray God as married to Jerusalem?
Yes, the Scriptures do portray God as being "married" to Jerusalem, or more specifically, to His people, Israel, often symbolized by the city of Jerusalem. This metaphor is used to express the covenant relationship between God and Israel, where God is depicted as a husband and Israel (or Jerusalem) as His wife.
Here are some key examples:
1. **Isaiah 54:5-6**:
- *"For your Maker is your husband—the Lord Almighty is his name—the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God."*
- In this passage, God is portrayed as the husband of Israel, promising to restore and take back His "wife" after a period of abandonment due to her unfaithfulness.
2. **Jeremiah 3:14**:
- *"Return, faithless people,” declares the Lord, “for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion."*
- Here, God appeals to His people to return to Him, reaffirming His role as their husband, despite their unfaithfulness.
3. **Ezekiel 16**:
- In Ezekiel 16, God speaks of how He took Jerusalem (representing Israel) as His bride, but she was unfaithful, engaging in idolatry and other sins. This chapter uses strong language to describe Israel's unfaithfulness and God's judgment but also His enduring love and willingness to restore.
4. **Hosea**:
- The entire book of Hosea uses the metaphor of marriage to illustrate God’s relationship with Israel. God commands the prophet Hosea to marry an unfaithful woman to symbolize Israel’s unfaithfulness to God through idolatry, and yet God’s willingness to take her back.
These passages depict the deep, covenantal relationship between God and His people, with Jerusalem often representing the heart of Israel. This marriage metaphor is used to highlight both the intimacy and the seriousness of the relationship, emphasizing God’s faithfulness in contrast to Israel's unfaithfulness.
When it comes to Revelation 21, the imagery shifts slightly to depict the New Jerusalem as the "bride," representing the purified and redeemed people of God in the New Covenant through Christ. This is seen as the fulfillment of God's covenant relationship, now extended to include all believers in Christ (the Church), not just Israel. This continuity from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is why the marriage metaphor is retained, but it now encompasses the universal Church as the bride of Christ.
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(5) Although, in Revelation 21 the imagery shifts slightly to depict the New Jerusalem as the "bride," representing the purified and redeemed people of God in the New Covenant through Christ; Revelation 21 is not saying that Israel as in the 12 tribes will not also make up this Heavenly Jerusalem as well correct and can you cite scripture to prove this fact?
You are correct. Revelation 21 does not exclude Israel, represented by the 12 tribes, from the New Jerusalem. In fact, the imagery used in Revelation 21 explicitly includes the 12 tribes of Israel as part of the Heavenly Jerusalem, symbolizing that the redeemed people of God include both Israel and the Church.
Here are key verses that demonstrate this:
1. **Revelation 21:12**:
- *"It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel."*
- This verse clearly states that the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are inscribed on the gates of the New Jerusalem. This indicates that the tribes of Israel are integral to the structure and identity of the city, symbolizing their inclusion in the redeemed people of God.
2. **Revelation 21:14**:
- *"The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."*
- The foundations of the city are inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles, who represent the Church. This, alongside the gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes, shows the unity of Israel and the Church in the New Jerusalem. Both the Old Covenant people of God (Israel) and the New Covenant people of God (the Church) are represented in this heavenly city.
3. **Ephesians 2:14-16**:
- *"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death theme hostility."*
- Although this passage is not in Revelation, it helps explain the theological foundation for the unity of Israel and the Church in the New Jerusalem. Through Christ, the barrier between Jews and Gentiles is broken down, and they are made into one people. This unity is symbolized in the New Jerusalem, where both Israel (the 12 tribes) and the Church (the 12 apostles) are foundational to the city.
4. **Romans 11:25-26**:
- *"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'"*
- Paul emphasizes that Israel still has a place in God's redemptive plan. The mention of “all Israel will be saved” suggests that Israel, along with the Gentiles, will share in the final redemption, which is symbolized in the New Jerusalem.
In summary, Revelation 21 includes the 12 tribes of Israel as part of the Heavenly Jerusalem, demonstrating that the redeemed community in the New Covenant includes both Israel and the Church. This unity is portrayed in the city’s structure, with Israel represented by the gates and the Church by the foundations, reflecting the fulfillment of God's promises to both groups.
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(6) Can you explain Isaiah 62:5?
For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. - Isaiah 62:5?
Isaiah 62:5 is part of a prophecy in the Book of Isaiah, where God speaks through the prophet Isaiah to describe the future restoration and glory of Jerusalem (often symbolized as Zion). The verse reads:
*"For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you."* (ESV)
### Explanation:
1. **Marriage Metaphor**: The verse uses the metaphor of marriage to express the deep and intimate relationship between God and His people. Just as a young man marries a young woman with love and commitment, so will the people of Israel (symbolized as sons) be deeply connected and committed to their land, Jerusalem (symbolized as the bride).
2. **Rejoicing**: The second part of the verse emphasizes the joy and delight that God has in His relationship with His people. Just as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride with happiness and love, God will rejoice over His people when they are restored and faithful.
3. **Restoration and Renewal**: In the context of Isaiah 62, this verse is part of a larger message of hope and restoration. God promises that Jerusalem will no longer be desolate or forsaken, but will be renewed, honored, and cherished like a bride. This is a promise of redemption and the fulfillment of God's covenant with Israel.
Overall, Isaiah 62:5 conveys a message of God's unwavering love, commitment, and joy in His relationship with His people, promising a future where they will be restored and blessed.
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(7) Why in scripture doesn't the New Jerusalem come down from Heaven prepared as a bride for Israel?
The New Jerusalem is described as coming down from Heaven "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" in Revelation 21:2, and this imagery specifically connects the city with the Church, often referred to as the "bride of Christ." There are a few theological and biblical reasons why this imagery is used for the Church rather than directly for Israel:
1. **Fulfillment of the New Covenant:** The New Testament reveals that the Church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles, is the fulfillment of the New Covenant prophesied in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27). This covenant is brought to fruition through Jesus Christ, who is the bridegroom, with the Church as His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). The imagery of the New Jerusalem as a bride underscores the fulfillment of this covenant relationship in the eschatological future.
2. **Unity of Believers in Christ:** The New Testament teaches that in Christ, there is a breaking down of the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles, creating "one new man" (Ephesians 2:14-16). The Church, therefore, represents a unified body of believers, transcending ethnic and cultural boundaries. The New Jerusalem descending as a bride for Christ symbolizes this unity and the inclusion of all believers, both Jewish and Gentile, in God's eternal kingdom.
3. **Israel as a Distinct Yet Integral Part of God’s Plan:** While the New Testament often refers to Israel in covenantal and prophetic terms, the Church is specifically described as the "bride of Christ." Israel is also depicted as having a special relationship with God, often portrayed as His chosen people or even His wife (e.g., Hosea 2:19-20, Isaiah 54:5). However, in the eschatological vision of Revelation, the focus is on the fulfillment of God's plan through Christ, who unites all believers under one covenant. The New Jerusalem, as the bride, represents this ultimate fulfillment and unity.
4. **Continuation of Old Testament Themes:** The Old Testament prophets, such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, spoke of a future glorious city of God where His people would dwell (e.g., Isaiah 60, Ezekiel 40-48). In Revelation, this prophetic vision is expanded to include the Church, reflecting the broader fulfillment of God's promises not just to Israel, but to all who are in Christ. The imagery of the bride signifies this broader and complete fulfillment.
5. **Christ as the Bridegroom:** The New Testament presents Christ as the bridegroom who comes for His bride, the Church (Matthew 25:1-13, John 3:29, Revelation 19:7). The descent of the New Jerusalem as a bride prepared for Christ underscores the culmination of this relationship, where the Church is presented in her perfected, glorified state.
In summary, the New Jerusalem is depicted as a bride for the Church because the Church, through Christ, represents the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan, uniting both Jews and Gentiles. While Israel holds a significant and ongoing role in God's plan, the imagery of the New Jerusalem as a bride for the Church highlights the eschatological fulfillment of God's promises to all His people through the work of Christ.
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(8) Isn't it true that the New Jerusalem doesn't come down from Heaven specifically for any other group of believers rather than the Church to reveal that the Church has also been included as God's beloved people alongside Israel?
Yes, that's a valid interpretation. The New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven in Revelation 21 emphasizes the inclusion of the Church as part of God's beloved people, alongside Israel.
In Revelation 21:2, the New Jerusalem is described as "coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." This imagery suggests that the New Jerusalem is prepared for a specific group of believers—the Church, which is often referred to as the "bride of Christ" in the New Testament.
However, the New Jerusalem also encompasses the fullness of God's people, including both the Church and Israel. The city is depicted with features that honor both groups:
- **Israel:** The city has twelve gates, each named after one of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:12). This indicates the continuing significance of Israel in God's plan.
- **The Church:** The city’s foundations bear the names of the twelve apostles (Revelation 21:14), representing the Church, which was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20).
The descent of the New Jerusalem from Heaven thus symbolizes the fulfillment of God's promises to both Israel and the Church. It reveals the unity and inclusion of all of God's people in the eschatological kingdom. The Church's inclusion alongside Israel as God’s beloved people is a key theme here, demonstrating the completion of God's redemptive work and the unity of all believers in Christ.
In essence, while the New Jerusalem does descend for the Church, it also signifies the culmination of God’s promises to all His people—both Israel and the Church—who are brought together in this new, eternal dwelling place.
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9) Even though the "bride" is depicted as a literally city with walls in Revelation 21; however, isn't the term "bride" in verse 9 used symbolically as to represent a particular people; the Church who will also make up the New Jerusalem alongside Israel?
Yes, the term "bride" in Revelation 21:9 is used symbolically to represent the people of God, which includes both the Church and Israel. In Revelation 21, the "bride" is described as the "New Jerusalem," and this imagery is rich with symbolic meaning.
- **Bride as the Church:** The New Testament often refers to the Church as the "bride of Christ" (e.g., Ephesians 5:25-27, 2 Corinthians 11:2). This metaphor emphasizes the close, covenantal relationship between Christ and His people, marked by love, faithfulness, and unity.
- **New Jerusalem as the People of God:** In Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem is described as a city with walls, gates, and foundations, symbolizing the entirety of God's people in their glorified, eternal state. The city's walls are inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and its foundations with the names of the twelve apostles (Revelation 21:12-14). This signifies the inclusion of both Israel and the Church in the New Jerusalem.
- **Bride Symbolism:** The bride metaphor, therefore, represents the collective people of God who are united with Christ in the New Jerusalem. The imagery of a city, with its walls and gates, symbolizes the security, purity, and unity of God's people in their eternal dwelling place.
In summary, the "bride" in Revelation 21:9 symbolizes the people of God—both the Church and Israel—who will make up the New Jerusalem in the eschatological fulfillment of God's plan.
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(10) Isn't it true that the New Jerusalem which comes down from out of heaven was initially reserved for Israel in spite of the Church?
Yes, it's true that the New Jerusalem, as depicted in the Old Testament, was initially envisioned as a promise specifically for Israel. The Old Testament prophets, such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, envisioned a future, glorified Jerusalem where Israel would dwell with God forever. This vision was deeply rooted in God's covenant promises to Israel, including the restoration of Jerusalem as a holy city and the center of God's presence.
### **Old Testament Perspective:**
1. **Covenantal Promises to Israel:** The Old Testament is replete with promises made to Israel about their future restoration, prosperity, and the centrality of Jerusalem. These promises were grounded in the covenants God made with Abraham, Moses, and David, and they envisioned a time when Israel would be restored to its former glory, with Jerusalem as its eternal capital (Isaiah 60, Ezekiel 40-48, Zechariah 14).
2. **Jerusalem as the Dwelling Place of God:** In the Old Testament, Jerusalem is often depicted as the dwelling place of God, where He would establish His presence among His people (e.g., Psalm 132:13-14, Isaiah 2:2-4). This city was envisioned as the focal point of God’s relationship with Israel, where the nations would come to worship the God of Israel.
### **New Testament Fulfillment and Expansion:**
In the New Testament, particularly in the Book of Revelation, the vision of the New Jerusalem is expanded to include not only Israel but also the Church, comprising both Jews and Gentiles:
1. **Inclusion of the Church:** The New Testament reveals the mystery that Gentiles are fellow heirs with Israel, members of the same body, and partakers in the promises in Christ (Ephesians 3:6). Through Christ’s redemptive work, the scope of God’s promises expands beyond Israel to include the Church, which is composed of all who believe in Christ, regardless of ethnic background.
2. **The New Jerusalem as the Bride of Christ:** In Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem is described as the bride of Christ, a symbol traditionally associated with the Church (Revelation 21:2, 9-10). This depiction suggests that the New Jerusalem represents the final, eschatological fulfillment of God’s promises to both Israel and the Church. The city is adorned with elements that honor both Israel (the twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes) and the Church (the twelve foundations inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles).
3. **Unity of God’s People:** The New Jerusalem represents the unity of all of God’s people in the eschatological future. While the city was initially reserved for Israel, in the fullness of God’s redemptive plan, it becomes the eternal dwelling place for both Israel and the Church. This reflects the unity of believers in Christ and the fulfillment of God’s promises to all His people.
### **Conclusion:**
The New Jerusalem, as initially envisioned in the Old Testament, was indeed reserved for Israel. However, the New Testament reveals that this city, which comes down out of Heaven, is ultimately for all of God’s people, including the Church. This expansion of the vision reflects the inclusiveness of God’s redemptive plan, where the promises made to Israel are fulfilled in a broader context that includes both Jews and Gentiles in Christ.
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(11) Doesn't Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 40-48 speak of Jerusalem, the City of God reserved for Israel as their everlasting dwelling place?
Yes, Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 40-48 do indeed speak of Jerusalem as the City of God and describe it as a future, glorious, and everlasting dwelling place specifically for Israel. These passages are part of the prophetic literature in the Old Testament, and they highlight God's promises to Israel regarding their future restoration and the establishment of a holy city where they will dwell with God forever.
### **Isaiah 60:**
Isaiah 60 presents a vision of a glorified Jerusalem, often interpreted as a depiction of the Messianic age or the future restoration of Israel. Key points include:
- **Glory of Jerusalem:** The chapter describes how Jerusalem will rise and shine because the glory of the Lord will shine upon it (Isaiah 60:1-2). The city is envisioned as a center of light, peace, and prosperity, attracting the nations to its radiance.
- **Gathering of Israel:** The prophecy speaks of the gathering of the dispersed Israelites back to Jerusalem, where they will enjoy God's blessings and abundance (Isaiah 60:4-9).
- **Eternal Inheritance:** The passage also emphasizes the eternal nature of this restoration, where Jerusalem will be a place of everlasting light and joy, with God Himself as the everlasting light and the city’s glory (Isaiah 60:19-22).
### **Ezekiel 40-48:**
Ezekiel 40-48 contains a detailed vision of a restored temple and a renewed land, often interpreted as a depiction of the future, ideal state of Israel. Key elements include:
- **The New Temple:** Ezekiel describes a new temple with precise measurements, representing the restoration of true worship and God's presence among His people (Ezekiel 40-42).
- **Division of the Land:** Ezekiel 47-48 outlines the division of the land among the twelve tribes of Israel, symbolizing the full restoration of Israel's inheritance in the Promised Land.
- **The City of God:** In Ezekiel 48, the city is described as "the LORD is there" (Yahweh Shammah), emphasizing God's permanent dwelling among His people in this restored city.
### **Relationship to New Testament Revelation:**
While Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 40-48 focus on the future glory of Jerusalem as the everlasting dwelling place for Israel, the New Testament, particularly in Revelation, expands on this theme. Revelation 21 and 22 describe the New Jerusalem, which is not only the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel but also includes the Church, symbolizing the unity of all God's people—Jews and Gentiles—under the New Covenant.
The New Testament often reinterprets Old Testament prophecies in light of the coming of Christ and the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God. Therefore, while Isaiah and Ezekiel highlight Israel’s restoration, Revelation shows the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies in a broader, more inclusive context.
### **Conclusion:**
Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 40-48 do indeed focus on the future Jerusalem as the everlasting dwelling place for Israel. However, in the New Testament, this vision is expanded to encompass all of God's people, both Israel and the Church, in the New Jerusalem. This reflects the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel while also highlighting the broader scope of God's redemptive plan through Christ.
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(12) Doesn't Revelation 21:25-26 imply that there will remain a distinction between the Gentiles and Israel in the Eternal state considering that the nations will bring their glory into the city of the New Jerusalem?
Revelation 21:25-26 says:
> "Its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations."
This passage is part of the broader vision of the New Jerusalem, which represents the culmination of God's redemptive plan. The mention of the nations bringing their glory into the city suggests that there will still be some form of diversity or distinction among peoples in the eternal state.
However, interpreting this passage in terms of the relationship between Gentiles and Israel can be complex. Some key points to consider:
1. **Unity in Diversity**: While the nations are mentioned, the overall context of Revelation emphasizes the unity of all believers in Christ. Earlier in Revelation, particularly in chapters 5 and 7, we see people from every tribe, tongue, and nation worshiping together before the throne of God. This suggests that while distinctions may exist, they are united in their worship and allegiance to God.
2. **The Role of Israel**: Revelation and other New Testament passages indicate that Israel has a special place in God's redemptive plan. Some interpretations hold that Israel and the Gentiles retain distinct roles even in the eternal state, but both are part of the same redeemed community.
3. **Theological Perspectives**: Different theological traditions interpret these passages differently. For instance, dispensationalists may see a clear distinction between Israel and the Church even in the eternal state, while covenant theologians tend to view the Church as the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, thus emphasizing the unity of all God's people.
In summary, Revelation 21:25-26 does suggest that there will be a recognition of the diversity of nations in the eternal state, but this does not necessarily imply a rigid distinction between Gentiles and Israel. The focus is on the unity of all believers in Christ, even as their unique identities or contributions are acknowledged in the New Jerusalem.
By ChatGPT and Aaron Fisher
